Ep. 19: Maggie Malek, CEO of Crispin
In Episode 19, James and Sean dive in with Maggie Malek, CEO of Cripsin, the OG Full Service Media & Creative Digital Marketing Agency behind THE Burger King, introducing Mini Cooper to the U.S., and the group that took on Big Tobacco.
We dive into:
-her career spanning the military, journalism, tech startups, to rising to the top of an agency
-adopting an intrapreneurial mindset to rise through the ranks -navigating M&A and how to lead your team and clients
-how emerging brands should approach selecting an agency
-retail media being the next frontier of growth for brands
Maggie's energy is magnetic and her story of rising through the ranks to one of the most storied agencies is inspiring.
Welcome to Brandbusters with your hosts, James Schwyn and Sean Lee. Together, we bust open the latest in CPG, retail media, and life, or whatever the we want. And for today's episode, we got something special cooked up for you. Extra spicy. Take it away, Sean.
Welcome back, everybody, to the latest episode of Brandbusters, and we have a treat for you today. We have somebody that I go way back with, to my days of launching the Xevo brand at P&G Ventures. We have Maggie Malik, who's the CEO of Crispin, a Stegwell Group Agency. And Crispin is a full service media and creative and digital marketing agency that works with clients like Nike, Target, and P&G. Never heard of those 3.
Maggie spent 6 years in the army and got her degree at the University of Houston. Go Big 12. And Maggie played an integral role of launching the Zevo brand with me when we were when she was at the m I MMI agency. From what I've seen observing Maggie, she's an inspiring leader and a creative problem solver, who I've observed firsthand in her clients and her people seem to be fiercely loyal to her. So very, very glad to have you on, Maggie.
Thanks for joining the pod. No problem. This would be fun. Yeah. It's it's great.
So you're to to be honest, you're the first agency person that we've had on. We've we've honestly been targeting people who are either leading marketing or founded small consumer goods brands. So excited to have an agency lens to everything. But one of the things that I think is fascinating about your journey and your story is how did you go from being in the army to editing at Barstool Magazine in in Houston to leading a large global creative agency? I think your journey can be inspiring to to founders or aspiring kind of brand and agency people I mean, everywhere out there.
Yeah. No. I think that's a really good question, and it is an interesting question. I was talking to somebody yesterday, and I was telling them about how, like, I never grew up and thought I would be a CEO. Like, my path has definitely been untraditional.
I always love doing really amazing work with really amazing people. So I joined the military, right after 911. My family's military, and I always loved and wanted to, like, be a part of something bigger. And so fun fact, it was actually either the Peace Corps or the military. I went the military route.
So 2 very different things. It was just, again, for me, a part of being something bigger. From there, I realized, like, I deeply love people. I deeply love working on a team. I think that teams, when they have a shared mission, can be, like, super successful in a lot of different ways.
I went to journalism and comm school at University of Houston, so that's how I got into writing. Barstool Magazine is actually not the Barstool Magazine that we all know and love from the Internet. I was gonna ask about that. It was a, again, dating myself. It was a written publication in Houston, Texas that we would go pass out at bars to tell about other bars.
So remember when you would walk into a bar 20 years ago and there were, like, the zines in the front. So Barstool Magazine. So I was the editor, and I and I wrote for them. I got and that's kinda how I got started in even social and community building. I started working in a tech startup in Houston.
So a lot of people don't know that both WordPress, and another company, tech start up, both started in Houston. So I worked for the, WordPress competitor, and it was a really fun time in technology. I was running I was the EA for the CEO, and I was doing agency comms. Like, again, like, what am I doing here? But that's how I got in the social.
I got hired at MMI as, an account director. The thing I always loved about my my agency and the thing I think, Sean, like, why you and I have always gotten along so well is, we really fostered this, like, entrepreneurial spirit. Mhmm. And so I, like, wanted to do everything in the agency. I wanted to learn about, like, how do we make money from creativity.
Like, we charge people for, like, writing copy. Like, it was so interesting. And I I'd heard of Chrisman at that time, but it wasn't again, the agency world, Maggie and I, Maggie not I'm talking about myself in the 3rd person. My comms person at the agency at Crispin, her name is Maggie also. And we talk a lot about, like, how weird our jobs are, but I wasn't as familiar with the agencies that they am today.
And so, yeah, like, it was a very untraditional path leading Crispin. You know, I think you mentioned it's different to have a agency CEO on this call. I actually think the most, like, the best case study and something I kinda wanna talk about today is, like, even we just went through a major rebrand as Crispin. Yeah. So it is a it's a world famous agency, but we've also changed a lot, and we take an entrepreneur and founder mindset to it.
And those things that you said at the beginning, again, like, that test and learn mindset, no matter what company you're at, start up, CPG, or agency, I just feel so strongly that you have to keep those things in mind in today's crazy marketing landscape. Yeah. No. And I think for for context for for listeners out there, when when Meggie and I started working together, MMI was really a you're kind of a local Houston based agency that started branching into more global stuff. I was at P&G at the time, and I was desperately trying to fire my New York agency that was charging me, like, $10,000 a month for, like, 3 Facebook videos that didn't follow any best practices, and I needed them to perform.
So I hired Maggie and the MMI team, and they were basically like, yeah, we can if you can help us get it get on the roster, we can crank out a ton of content for you and and test and learn and be there. And and kind of the way that was happening in the mid 2000 tens, you needed high volume of content, AB testing, seeing what would drive, like, the lowest cost per acquisition and what would perform the best. And I think I don't even know if you guys that was, like, your core competency at the time, but Maggie and the team just jumped in. It was like, yeah, we'll figure it out with you. And and we kinda just did it together.
And and and that's what I've always enjoyed about MMI and and presumably now Stagwell, like that same spirit that you guys have held held true. Yeah. I think that I'm like, the fact that you just said the mid 20 tens, I have to go think about my life. But, somebody on the I'm gonna go jump out this with Yeah. It was like somebody on a call recently said, like, yeah.
This was cool in the late 1900, and I was like, I can't with this conversation. No. I think the the thing that we had at MMI was that that really business problem solver mindset. We really focused on what is the thing that the brand is trying to accomplish and how do we do that through media, social, and creativity. So I would say that was our core competency.
Fast forward to to why this makes sense for Crispin is Crispin has always been Crispin's been around since 1965. So it got famous in the early 2000, but fun fact, Crispin was also started by a veteran, Sam Crispin. They they're like, we call ourselves, like, the OG business problem solvers. If you think about some of the early work that Crispin did in the early 2000, before the mid 2000 tens god. The truth work about tobacco, the Burger King work, all of that was based on how do we what is the problem a brand is trying to solve, and then how do we use social media creativity to solve it and, like, get people talking a ton?
Yeah. So the combination of CRISPIN and MMI and then another agency called Observatory that does branded entertainment was really to help CMOs solve this modern business problem of, like, we still need to get scrappy. We still need to connect media and creativity. And the thing that I also think it's special about CRISPRN is CRISPRN was founded in Miami, then it was in Boulder. MMI was in Houston.
So we have New York and LA representation, big teams. We also have a huge team in Houston. And I think the the diversity of where we are located and backgrounds and skill sets really help keep that true Crispin spirit alive. But what you loved about working with us was, like, we can do transactional learning experiments. We can get our hands dirty, and we don't need to spend a $1,000,000,000 to do it.
Yeah. Yeah. That's great. And kind of going off this, I I feel like especially in marketing, agency life, now even more so post COVID, You're seeing stints and tenure, like, 2 to 4 years. You're seeing a lot of turnover both brand and agency side.
You're kind of this exceptional. I love that concept of, like, entrepreneur. For listeners, how would you advise, you know, people that may be early in their career, how can they apply that philosophy to their organization? And on the flip side of that, how do you think organizations can better foster that, to encourage retention and drive culture, which is such, kind of a secret sauce component of the agency world? Yeah.
So, Crispin, I will say, is weird, and it's something I'm actually, like, pretty proud of. It's something that is, again, similar, Crispin, and where I come from. Our average employee tenure is 6 to 7 years. That's great. And our our client tenure is also really, really long.
And the thing that I would say to encourage that entrepreneur spirit and I I say this like, people have heard me say this on calls. I I have a all hands meeting later today, and I will say this. My prayer and hope is that the next CEO of Crispin sits at Crispin right now. Like, I want to teach people, and I, like, mean that genuinely because I we had a pitch call this morning, and I said, like, the people on this Crispin leadership team didn't start this agency to sell it. We are all promoted, passionate executives who are experts in our craft, and we happen to be leaders today.
But we did not start out that way. We had people that poured into us, like Cindy Marion. Sean, you met her, the founder of MMI. She taught me the business of creativity. Like, we spend so much time on that in Crispin.
We actually had a call earlier today, James, and we were talking about okay. So hybrid world is weird. We've got in person people. We've got remote people. So one of the things we're gonna be working on soon is, like, how do we create more of a program for new employees to just rotate shadowing on calls?
So one of the the challenges with hybrid world is we've all seen that sometimes there are too many people on a call. So how do we make sure that the only people on the call are, like, the necessary parties that are briefed in? So then you have space for newer employees, both tenure wise and junior wise, to join calls and listen. Because, like, again, like, Sean, I thought this is, like, such, like, baby us earlier in our careers. Like, we got to do really cool things at really young ages that, like, very much, propelled us, and it was because people trusted us and people let us watch let us watch them.
Agree. Agree. And I think that's incredibly important. Answer. It it does.
It does. And I think it's just something that it's such a shift. I hate to, like, go back to COVID and reference that. Right? But I think the ability to be an entrepreneur and, like, spend you know, going on weekends or do, like, the late night pitch prep and, like, the happy hours and just the things that would foster that kind of culture and excitement now in a disparate and fragmented, like, work environment.
It's hard to do so. I love the fact that you're kinda leading the charge and taking actionable steps. Like, how can we expose our employees to other facets of the business so that they can learn and feel like they're valued and and contribute more? So I think that's a great, pragmatic way to to apply that. Because I think especially in agencies, your the culture, aside from the strategy, is very much the secret sauce.
So I think stoking those fires, that type of stuff oozes out in pitches. There's the actual pitch itself. There's the proposal, what have you, but they can feel what teams are connected, and that can shine through subconsciously versus what is just presented obviously in front of them. So I think that's a great answer and love love hearing that. Yeah.
I think the I think the other thing that you said that is probably really important for anybody listening, especially if you're more junior in your career, is just take the initiative. Try to be the entrepreneur. Like, if you go if you're a small company, go to the founder and say, can I learn this? Can I sit in in this meeting? Can I take on this responsibility?
Oftentimes, like, I have a very small company of, like, less than 20 people. The answer is yes. Like, if somebody wants to step up and do stuff, like, I'm not gonna say no. And I'm probably gonna give them a huge runway to go figure it out. And and if they mess up, they'll learn from it and and and we'll go from there.
But I think that's whether you're at an agency, a brand, a big company, just willing being willing to learn those things and put yourself out there are probably some of the most important things. And I think you've done that in your career. Maggie, and at least at MMI, it seemed like a lot of people were willing to step out of their comfort zone and, and take ownership of things that may not have been exactly on their work plan. Yeah. I think the other thing we're trying to do a lot more of, and I would be curious how, other, like, CPG brands do this too again because I think there's so much to learn from across is, like, one of the things we're trying to be more regular about is I feel like sometimes we forget that we didn't all start on the same day.
And so we do, like, regular, what we call, capabilities presentations and then practice presentations that I would say are not like, my words because it's Friday. They're not set it and forget it. Like, they change, but we do them once a quarter. So, like, the media team does a presentation every single quarter. The creative team does a presentation to the whole agency every single quarter.
As we update the capabilities presentation, we do it for everybody every quarter. And those, like, drum beats of, also, you get time with me, the head of media, the the CCO, It also is, like, attractive to employees, but it helps with, like, that ongoing reminder that, like, company education does not just happen during onboarding. It doesn't just happen, you know, when we're setting our budgets in October. Like, you've gotta be a little bit methodical and I would say, like, maniacal sometimes about it where, like, you're like, this is the thing that we do every quarter to remind people Archer North in this area. I think I think a lot of companies forget how important that is.
Yeah. I agree with that wholeheartedly. One thing that I think you've worked with a lot of big companies like the Targets, the Nikes, the Procter and Gambles of the world. You've also worked with kind of smaller startups within those companies or smaller, more upstart brands. What advice or what are some of the things that you've seen that have worked that startups could learn from big companies and vice versa?
Big companies could learn from the the smaller brands, in in the digital marketing space and and and kinda trial and awareness space. It's funny. I always remind the team that we're a 180 person startup. Like, I use that language all the time, because a lot of time, I I find that it has people put their shoulders down. I'm learning so much from running this agency, starting it back up again.
Again, if you Google CRISPRN and CPB, you will see, like, we have you know, there's raffle time out there. But I just, like, really feel like it applies to so many different companies. So, a, the takeaways I would say is, like, testing and learning constantly. You have to have consistent innovation to find work that works for you. That might be creative you put out in the world, media you test, but also internal tools.
That's really big. We have this, like, everyone is a creator, maker mentality in the agency as well. If you think about creativity 30 years ago, it was, like, the creatives were the celebrities in the agency world. Right? But now, again, either at a CPG startup or a brand or an agency, good ideas can come from everywhere.
Like, we are all creators and creatives today. So how do you foster that environment in your company where people can, like Sean or James, bring up ideas to y'all? Even if it might be a little bit different than what you're thinking, it might be amazing. And then I do feel like you have to give people a really, really strong sense of purpose. Again, no matter what the company size is, that is something I felt like was a big takeaway for me from the military is, like, we have this thing called commander's intent.
And everybody may have their individual jobs to do, and everybody felt like they were contributing, but we all had, like, a shared purpose. So for us, we talk a lot about, like, our overarching, like, thing that gets us up in the morning is, like, we wanna leave the advertising world better than we found it. And that doesn't mean only, like, doing nonprofit work and only winning awards. That means, like, we want to treat each other differently. We want to do ads that are good.
We don't wanna waste clients' money, all of that. And I and I find that, like, shared internal purpose. Like, we don't use that language externally. But that shared internal purpose, like, it gives people a reason to to get up in the morning and, like, be excited when it is, like, maybe a more boring day. Like, Sean, like, I'm packing boxes all morning or I'm doing it's it's for a reason even if today is, like, not the sexiest day of my job.
Yeah. I agree. Like for me, it's like you just try to you're like, you know what? I was packing boxes for a fast growing DTC brand that the founder was on our podcast. So I'm helping, you know, them grow their brand and and and grow their reach.
And the more boxes we send out, the better their marketing and d to c is going. So, you know, it's it's something that gets you excited in the world or in the day even if it's not what you woke up thinking you were gonna do. Yes. But also that too. Like, that's what makes our jobs exciting.
You know? Like, I like days that are maybe different than what I thought it was gonna be what I was gonna be doing. Yeah. I wholeheartedly agree. So in the kind of agency ecosystem, I mean, I think it's notorious.
A lot of consolidation, especially over the the last few years. Right? And I think, you're one of the few individuals that we I think the only individual you've had on the podcast that's kind of been through a merger acquisition type of scenario. Obviously, very exciting opportunity for companies, but sometimes, depending where you are in the organization, it can be very scary. So For sure.
I I guess from what you can share, I mean, talk about that type of experience and how can orgs be, you know, optimistic and look at that as a great opportunity to kind of check forward and why I can open up so many new innovation opportunities? Because I think sometimes people are like the floor starts shaking. They get a a concern, whereas, actually, it can be a great catalyst for the agency and the client base as well. That's a great question. And so, again, my my comms partner, whose name is also Maggie, we have been through a lot, I would say, in the last several years.
When we were at MMI, we, had a merger with a company called Media Kitchen. Most recently, we brought together 3 different cultures under the amazing Christman banner. That, James, exactly what you said is, like, people do feel unsettled, and everybody is so passionate about where they came from and what it is that they did before that I would say the 1st year of this merger was really spent listening, learning, and understanding, like, where everyone is coming from. We were very clear in the beginning with this merger that, like, no one's coming in like a wrecking ball. No one is perfectly perfect and right.
The reason we are doing this converse, combination is because modern marketers and modern CMOs need both brand awareness, and they need performance. They need brand entertainment. They need data. They need social. We need to connect all of those things together.
And so we were really clear with everything that that was the reason we were going forward. Even if you think about the reason we picked the Christman brand is I came from MMI. That agency is my baby. It was a 16 year love affair. It was hard.
Right? But, okay, what do we need to be successful in the market? People know Crispin as this innovative business problem solver brand. So together, we're all gonna get behind the Crispin name. We're gonna sunset legacy names that, that no longer serve us.
We now have 4 doors to bring clients in. So we're bringing clients in who wanna find a media partner. We're bringing clients in who want creative, who want branded entertainment, and who want social. So we have more opportunities to bring amazing work in for our people than ever before. We also have a lot of folks who's have switched departments in this merger.
Like, okay. You come from, the creative team at legacy company x. What you're actually passionate about is production or project management. How do we move you over here? I would also say that HR having amazing HR partners and collaborators and educators is a huge part of this process in that you need people to understand that they, like, have a safe place to go.
I would also say, like, for founders going through something like this, I use my experience as, like, as an important one. Because, like, again, I set down a brand that I love to to do this merger. You really do have to be open to the ideas from everywhere, and you have to be, like, really deeply authentic about it. And you have to acknowledge that, like, again, we are doing this because there are good things about each of these organizations that can make each other better. And if you're not adopting anything from the old company that you've absorbed, again, whether it's a product or a new process or something, then I feel like you almost, like, kill the point of doing a merger.
You kill the point of doing an acquisition. Like, so I think that that those are the big things that we did. The importance of communications, the importance of making sure that everyone feels like they know what we're doing and they're bought in. But then, also, I will say, like, once you're like, okay. We got a mission.
It's time to move. This is where we're going. If you are not interested in being a part of this new team, that's also okay. You know? And, like, I think one of the things, again, our HR team is, like, so excellent about is, like, how do we make sure that, like, everybody feels awesome?
And during their time here, they're pumped about it, and, like, people leaving doesn't have to be a bad thing. You know? Like, you can both go on and do something different. I mean, the thing that's crazy too is even since the merger, we have so many Crispin boomerangs. People that were like, this might this seems kinda weird.
I'm out. And, like, even 6 months later, they're like, actually, we would love to do this. So yeah. Like so I think, again, that, like, important culture and and supporting of people, like and people can feel it. People know when you're faking.
And, yeah, they they are not interested in that. Yeah. And I think whether it's the merger or kinda agency culture, like, from what I what I've observed is and I think as a testament, like, we've known each other for quite some time is is people it seems like loyalty, especially in the consumer goods space is pretty big and whether it's in the agency world. How do you how important is kind of that loyalty that you build with people in relationships, whether it's clients that may boomerang back or or move and and bring business over to you or employees that may, you know, boomerang back? How do you think about just building those long term relationships?
And what I perceive is, you know, there's a lot of loyalty and, feelings in the agency and and digital marketing world. I mean, y'all on brand side too. I think their that strong sense of purpose applies again. Like, what it is that we're doing, that is huge, I think for brand consumer relationships as well. But I think even talking about, like, that idea we were discussing a little bit earlier about how do you mentor people, you never know where somebody is gonna go.
Like, Sean, you, like, have gone on a completely different journey than most That's what I would have thought. Than most p and g people. Right? And I would say also, like, me too. And so you never know where people are gonna end up.
And, like, I think just always following your true north and your company's true north and, like, being really authentic about it is what fosters that, like, loyalty. I think even with, like, brands, right, like CPG brands. You know, I think about, like, liquid death. They're so wild and weird, but, like, they have such a cult following because they are unapologetically who they are at all times. And so I think that brands that have that purpose also inspire loyalty from their employees, but also from consumers too.
Yeah. I completely agree. And kinda talking about the culture piece with with agencies and and with brands, we have a lot of smaller brands that listen to podcasts or founders that may be looking for their first agency. Maybe they're using contractors or freelancers right now. One of the problems that I see a lot is I'm talking to people or consulting with people is a smaller brand might reach for an agency that might not be the perfect fit for them.
It might be too high of a budget, expectations aren't aligned, and then it happens and then everybody's frustrated. What advice would you have for for smaller or emerging brands? Is there looking for an agency that's right for them at this time? And on the agency side, how do you know if you're talking to somebody that's not a fit? Because really, I think for the magic to happen, it's gotta be a fit for both sides.
Yeah. I think that's a great question. And I again, like, this goes back to our history together because, like, we've really grown together too. I know it's, like, weird to talk about money so fast, but I think the biggest challenge is if if budgets are, like, totally off and misaligned, then that is where things get, I would say, like, can get screwy really fast. So we have a process, and it is budget authority need timing.
We call it the BANT. So when somebody comes to us, the first thing we ask is, like, what is your budget? And we know thresholds for, like, okay. If it is performance marketing, we know that we're gonna have to do this in terms of reporting. And so this is what we're gonna wanna do in terms of creative, and this is what the meeting cadence look like looks like.
And so we are too big for Yeah. Certain size brands. There are and you mentioned MMI back in the day. We were a wonderful fit for, like, local, local businesses, smaller brands. If you're looking for an agency, you need to be really, really clear on, like, what is your budget, and then you need to make sure that that agency is right for you from a people and chemistry perspective.
Like, I would say, again, throw it like kind of a chip on my shoulder. Like, don't get glitzed and glammed as a small company by, agency logos. There are a lot of really good small agencies that are very good in local markets and also at, more national things that are really good fits for start ups. I would also say if you are a start up looking to scale, exposing your business plan to the agency could also help. So when I think about, like, that BAMP process I was talking about, if a start up were to come to us and say, here's how maybe we cocreate value and, like, here is our growth plan together, then we might ignore the budget and still decide to partner because we're gonna we're gonna grow together because we deeply understand the business challenges.
We understand it is what you're facing. So I think that that, like, being very clear on what you need, what your budget is, and what your road map looks like. And then, again, people in chemistry, like, do your values align. That's important too. Because they're also again, I and I I'm a huge believer in agencies.
I think agencies, what we do is very, very important. We work with a lot of inner, intercompany teams too. Like, Sean, you know, like, where the team inside is doing a lot. You've you've gotta make sure you trust each other and your values align. Yeah.
I, yeah, I agree wholeheartedly with all those all those things. I think it's great advice for founders looking to either for their first agency or maybe stepping up or leveling up to a a slightly bigger agency. Mhmm. And I think on the flip side of that, Sean and I, once upon a time, worked together at, an agency. I think aligning it's that's just as important on the agency side, for client acquisition strategy in terms of it's very hard when you're incentivized to hit certain growth goals, but understanding, like, who's a true fit.
And that might mean turning down certain business and missing certain targets and goals. By the end of the day, you're serving that potential brand and actually your agency better, in the long run, and that could come back around. Like you said, you never know. People don't last. People change environments.
They boomerang. So I think if you set that precedent and kind of that relational deposit the right way initially, that can come back, maybe call karma, universe, God, what have you, but it can come back. And I think make sure everyone's dialed in on what we do at what you know, we're staying in our lane versus kind of taking on nuisance revenue, which is gonna create frustration on both sides. Oh, yeah. And, like, we I think this is where, like, learnings are important.
Like, I would say during the pandemic, we did have a period of time where we're like, whatever. Like, just take everything. It'll be fine. Like, we need it. Yeah.
And we're we were all on that boat, I think, during the pandemic. And, yeah, like, later, it was like, it never worked well. Everyone was upset on the client side and our side. And so it's just, like, not always worth it. I also feel like one of the things too I've seen a lot in pitches is we might ultimately, like, go separate ways at the end too, but, like, I've stayed close friends with people that we've pitched more than I think I ever have before too in the last 2 years, which has been really interesting where it's like, okay.
Like, it might not work out right now, but, like, let's still call each other for advice. And Yeah. The other thing I will say too that's wild, and this is probably for, bigger companies, but I would also say, like, giving this advice to founders is, like, things are more purchasing driven. Decisions are more purchasing driven, I would say, than they have ever been before. And if you're a founder, like, you should be making the decision, not your CFO.
Your CFO is your partner, and, like, y'all have to, like, ride or die together and, like, be be each other's back. But, like, you still, at the end of the day, need to make what you believe is the best decision for your company. And that's where we've seen, like, we might lose a piece of business because purchasing made a decision, but later, it's the CMO coming back to say, like, okay. Yeah. Let's try this.
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Go ahead, Sean. I feel like you you had something you're gonna weigh in on.
Yeah. I mean, I think it goes back to you the point we've been talking about this entire episode, which is the relationship piece. I think building those long term relationships and and, you know, if you can save a small amount of money through the purchasing department, but you go with somebody that may not be the right fit or you don't feel great about the relationship or the chemistry, like spend a little bit of extra money if it's pretty apples to apples to go with the person who you think is gonna be the best fit. And don't always make it just an accounting and spreadsheet decision because I feel like that's when a lot of people get into trouble. Yep.
Yeah. I agree. And one of my favorite things you said this episode, the co value the co creation of value. I I think if you show your cards, I think so many times we try to keep them close to our chest. We're worried they're gonna be used against us.
I think if you're an emerging brand trying to identify an agency that might be a little bit more upstream, just be transparent about that. Listen. Like, this is what we can do right now. This is where we think we can go and equip that agency to make an educated decision because they might lean in with you. But if you hold back, you both are gonna miss out on opportunities.
So I think just have those candid and hard conversations, and the hard conversations don't always have to be hard. Conflict is a bridge to connection. It doesn't have to be this volatile thing or this ego driven thing. So, it gets encouragement again for emerging brands that are on the cusp of kind of taking that step up with, a a larger agency. No.
I love that. I mean oh, you just said something that, like, I will say, like, would spark me too if your listeners are looking for an agency. One of the things that we are really excited about and looking for are businesses who, a, want an agency that are serial truth tellers. But, like, we are looking for brands that will, like, let us get wild with them and not do dumb creativity just to do dumb creativity, but where we are true partners. And then we can get on stage and, like, talk about it together.
Because I think one of the the things that's what small businesses need, and that's what agencies, even larger agencies like Crispin are yearning for. Because a lot of our clients like, you've mentioned our client list. Sean knows this. We're not allowed to talk about the work that we do for any of those clients. Yeah.
So, like, we're we can talk about them in pitches, but, like, we would love clients who are like, hey. I'm a new beard oil brand, and I've seen some of the stuff that you've done. Let's go in this together, and, like, let's get creative about how we both have control and partnership in the outcomes. And that's, I think, a it's like a little bit of a scary conversation for a founder. It's a scary conversation for a CEO too.
But, like, for a founder, like, you're giving away some of that. Like, that's what I loved about, like, Sean the work we got to do with Xevo. It's like, Sean let us brag about it in partnership all over the walls of P&G. I think what we would love is, like, smaller start up brands who are not publicly traded, who wanna partner and do really cool innovative things, and who will, like, again, maybe be, like, our rider dies to go, like, speak at South by Southwest together about how we use beard oil to broke break the Internet. I don't know.
So that is one thing, James, that you just said, like, just sparked of, like, that's that is a way to get bigger agencies excited is if you, like, give them give them some partnership. Yeah. I was gonna say, like, in is this something not just you, but, like, agents larger agencies, if somebody came to you and said, hey, here's my business plan. We're growing pretty well. I don't have a lot of money right now, but we could partner together and you guys can have pretty much like free creative reign to do really cool stuff.
Like, would you is is that something that's appealing to a larger agency? Because then, like you said, you can get the case study. Most likely that founder is gonna be willing to be on stage with you because a lot almost every founder we've interviewed here, that they have a large presence. Like the founder is almost kind of a part of the brand. That's the trend that we're seeing.
So I think that it's an interesting tidbit because, hey, I might not be able to compensate you the way that a target or p and g could, but I could give you guys some really fun creative control to do your best work, and then you can go likely win more business from the p and g's of the world once they see that work. Yeah. No. What I I would be I mean so not every agency CEO is gonna say this, but, like, I would say that. Right?
Like, I think, Sean, like, one of the cool things, like, again, back in the day, it's like, okay. Well, do we get paid based on how well the brand performs? But, again, that goes with, like, you give us creative freedom, but we have to know, like, if things are in stock. Like, how do we have visibility into you know, all of that road map. Like, that is where, like, I would love an up and coming brand to come to us and say, like, yeah.
Let's do this. We will both be honest about staffing costs, numbers, where things are going. And, like, as as we grow, our retainer with you will grow. And we will talk about it publicly and we will that's where that's where I think they're that, like, those conversations never end up going the way that I would like them to go is the smaller brands are not necessarily able to or comfortable saying, like, oh, yeah. Like, I'll give you, you know, for every dollar, 10% of the profit if we do this together, and I'll give you freedom.
And I'll make sure you know that, like, when out of stocks are happening. So, but that is, like, definitely a conversation certain agencies would be, like, jazz to have. Yeah. So going back to your favorite era of the mid 20 tens, we saw, d two c as a channel. Google, Facebook, YouTube really kind of emerging as a premier performance marketing, channel and outlet.
Where do you see the trend being for the next 5 to 10 years? You know, video, is very big right now. Retail media is very big. What are the the channels and mediums as you're thinking about marketing mix or media mix for your client base? Like, if if brands need a hedge bet hedge or bets right now, where are you trying to double down?
Yeah. I mean, you said retail media. That is definitely the next frontier, and we're already seeing a ton of our CPGs moving away from d two c and investing there. So we know that Amazon, Target, Walmart, and then Albertsons, Kroger, they're all making massive strides in that area. I think their partnerships that they have with the social networks is really, really interesting.
You know, I think the biggest challenge, and this is not a new thing, but is the adding more closed wall ecosystems to the marketing mix? Like, our again, 20 ten's challenge even with just Amazon was god. Like, we cannot get any data here. And so we're trying to make smart decisions across, you know, the whole marketing mix, and it it makes it difficult. So that's something that we're nervous about, but I do feel like the solution is how do we think about the full funnel.
Right? Like, I think startups can get not just startups y'all. Even big d two c brands are so hooked on the performance drug. Mhmm. Like, you get so hooked on it that you then forget to fill the funnel.
So how do we make sure that we have full funnel marketing act like, activities that are they're leveraging retail media networks, but then also making sure that we're up leveling, our analytics. Thinking about all of that together, I think, is is really, really big. So that's how I've been thinking about it. Beyond retail media, are there any channels like, obviously, TikTok seems to be be the rage right now. Are there any other channels that you think could could emerge to be the next what Facebook was in, you know, 2013?
So the one that I think is, like, slept on a lot like, obviously, TikTok and Instagram, everyone's trying to figure that out. TikTok shops. Pinterest, I feel like, is extremely slept on. Pinterest, especially for women, is and Gen z, we're talking to this about clients right now, is still a huge discovery engine. One of the trends that we're seeing is, like, Gen z.
There's so much social in your face. Right? And a lot of it is negative that Pinterest is this place you go to, like, dream. Pinterest has this new AI tool, and they're looking for brands to do alphas and betas with. So, like, if I am searching for something, then it will start selecting other things that you might be interested based on that.
The reason I always, like, kind of am hesitant on answering this question is, like, social and the channels are changing so quickly that, to me, the next frontier is, like, curiosity, and the next frontier is, like, being really, really open. I mean, we don't know what's gonna happen to TikTok. Right? Every 15 minutes, the government's like, we're gonna shut that down. We thought cookies was a whole thing that we talked about for 5 years, and then, like, it ended up not mattering.
So not mattering as much. So I would say just, like, creating a as as your brands are picking agencies too, making sure they're picking an agency that has flexibility within the budget and isn't gonna over commit to any one place so that then you can experiment. Like, if Pinterest again, if you're, like, a very visual brand that sells lamps, you a 100% should be on Pinterest. I don't know if you should invest all your time in TikTok. So I think it's, like, being in the right place for, like, what it is you're trying to do is where I think a lot about.
Yeah. That's great. That's great. No. This has been a wonderful conversation.
I think one thing we like to ask everybody is we're is we're running now is is kind of a non work related question. So obviously, you have a crazy career and personal life. How do you decompress outside of work and and stay sane? I know you're, I don't know if you still are, but you were a Pokemon Go fanatic and you like to lift weights and have your home gym, with your dogs. But what, what keeps you sane and how do you keep it all together with all the things you have going on rattling around your brain?
So I still play Pokemon. It is the best. I'm 40, and I'm everyone's cool aunt because I have caught them all. The thing I would say that has been big for me in the last 2 years is actually yoga. And, like, I'm a highly aggressive, highly competitive weightlifting person similar to you, and I need to make my brain quiet.
And so, like, yoga has been really, really good for me. I also feel like a bedtime routine has become really important to me. Not to make this about life choices, but, like, I stopped drinking a while ago, and it was because it was impacting my sleep. Mhmm. And the world is stressful and our jobs are stressful.
And if you work in a start up, it's stressful and you have, like, so much cortisol in your system. Doing things that, like, force you to slow down are really, really important, and eliminating things from your life that you think may make it better in the moment but then affect you for 48 and 72 hours are actually not serving you. So, again, not to make this, like, super hippie dippy, but, like, I feel like making life choices related to slowing down, yoga, having routines I enforce. Like, y'all, no one's gonna die after 7 PM. I'm gonna turn my computer off.
If if something is an emergency, they will call my cell phone. Like, you have to give yourself space. That's the only way you can be a good leader. If you're not filling up your cup, you're acting like a psychopath on teams. I assure you, I have done it.
Like so I just think, like, forcing ourselves to slow down is really important. Yeah. I think that's great. I mean, I used to I used to run a ton, and that was, like because you're, your, your body's, your body's moving. So like, you're basically just alone with your thoughts and in your brain.
As I get older, it was harder on my body. I was probably causing more cortisol from all the running I was doing, but I've, I guess weightlifting is kind of that way for me. I like to sit in the sauna. Again, another thing that a stressor, but it kinda keeps your mind mind quiet while everything else is is going on around you. But yeah.
It's too. That's fantastic advice. Any thoughts on that, James? No. I I think the fact you know, that you're showing that open with that, I love that.
I think there are, you know, certain organizations and culture sometimes where there's like, hey. It's just kind of like hustle porn culture, and that's not, sustainable. Right? Like, you're gonna burn out. You might be able to do that in your early twenties, but as you progress through your career and have more demands, it might not be as much of a grind day to day, but you're carrying very more of the stress.
You have payroll. You have a balance sheet. You have all these you have investors. You have all these things that you have that's very weighty, and you're just going to, you know, bleed yourself dry if you keep running at it. So I love that, like, transparency.
And, again, there's nothing wrong with working hard and pushing yourself, but it's also, like, with the boundaries. And I think sometimes you superior work or results, actually, if you put those barriers up, because you're gonna be so much more dialed in during that time. So, again, just appreciate you being open like that and I think encouraging that approach because I think sometimes people have that opposite mindset of, oh, if I don't do this, like, my quality of work, I'm not gonna be respected. It's like, no, you're gonna bring so much more of yourself into everything you do. Yeah.
I think the other really interesting thing too, is like, just being open about like, not, not drinking. I drink probably 95% less than I, than I have in my life just because I, I can't, my kids are going to be up at 6 am or I have to be up and I have to be on. And you know, if you get a bad night's sleep, you're, you might have 2 bad days after that. So I, I don't think it's a conscious choice. It's just through like, I have to do it to survive.
But I think just as a society to like giving people more permission to do that and to choose other outlets, like a yoga, weightlifting, and running or whatever relaxes you to, to quiet your brain as opposed to going to a happy hour, having a glass of wine right before bed. I I think it's not talked about enough, and I think it can have a profound impact. Yeah. Well, I think the thing too, like, thinking about, like, how you grow in your career and you stay sharp, I am so much better at industry events because I'm one of the people there that is not having as much of a party. So, like, I'm, like, super dialed in, and, like, I like, Cannes is a big one for our industry.
I love it. It's like it and I this is the 2nd year I've done it sober, and it was like I'm like, Maggie. Not me, Maggie. Other Maggie. What are we doing this morning?
Like, I, like, have endless energy and less anxiety than I had when I would do things like that and, like, you know, be coming in the next morning, like, not feeling great. You know? Yeah. Absolutely. So you can still go out.
You can still go to the happy hours. You can still do all the things. Like, I have a rule. And, like, once I've heard the same story three times from the same person, it's time for me to go to bed. Yeah.
Absolutely. It's good just to, you know, call it and then and then stay fresh for the the next day at those industry events. Well, no, Megan, this has been this has been fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on. Obviously, we're branching out with our our first agency person on the on the show, but hopefully all of our guests found some great nuggets of advice.
I know I did around kind of brand inter agency interactions and just really how to think about, you know, being creative in in in problem solving, whether you're a small brand or a large brand. So appreciate the time, and thank you for joining. If anybody's interested, you can follow Maggie on Twitter, which I guess is now x. Friend her on LinkedIn. Do the same for James and I.
And then for us, go follow us on YouTube. Follow us on Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. It helps our analytics and helps us stay relevant in different search engines. And if you found value from this today, please share it with your colleagues and friends. Alright.
Thank you, everybody.