Ep. 22: Ryan Chen, Co-founder of Neuro
In Episode 22 (and our first of 2025), James and Sean chat with Ryan Chen, Co-Founder of Neuro, the Leading Functional Gum and Mint Brand.
In this episode, we cover:
-Starting a company with your best friend
-Orienting innovation behind the brand's identify -Receiving and declining not one but TWO offers on Shark Tank to preserve the company's valuation and how the experience opened retail doors afterward
-Expanding from digital-first to over 10,000 stores and how to determine which retailers are the right fit for your brand
-Cultivating authentic relationships with celebrities like Apolo Ohno, Steve Aioki, and Young the Giant to support your brand Ryan shares a ton of practical advice for brands of all stages.
Listen, re-listen, and share it with friends.
If you haven't given Neuro a try, make sure to check them out on Amazon, TikTok Shop, or neurogum.com.
Welcome to Brand Busters with your hosts, James Schwyn and Sean Lee. Together, we bust open the latest in CPG, retail media, and life, or whatever the we want. And for today's episode, we got something special cooked up for you. Extra spicy. Take it away, Sean.
Awesome. Welcome back, everybody, to the latest episode of Brandbusters. We have a treat for you guys today. We have Ryan Chen, who is one of the cofounders of Neuro, the leading functional and mint company that appeared on Shark Tank and is in 10,000 retail stores nationwide and have sold over a 100,000,000 pieces and counting. So we're personally inspired by the brand.
I think James is actually using the product while we record this podcast. Now, right now, it's resolving in mouth represent. This guy you pop 1 in. That's amazing. So, we're really pumped to have Ryan here, especially given given kind of their journey of how they've grown the brand and some interesting ways and tactics and channels that they've grown the brand.
So excited to have you here, Ryan. Thanks for spending the time with us. I'm sure our audience is gonna learn a ton from you today. Yeah. Super stoked to be here.
Thanks for having me. So we're gonna we're gonna jump right oh, go ahead. Sorry. No. We're not gonna We're gonna rip.
We're gonna rip. I'm I'm got my caffeine and my focus, going right now. So, so, Ryan, like, the the trend what there's a lot of trends that we've noticed since we've been doing this over the last plus year, with founders, cofounders. The kind of drive to found a company typically starts from, like, some personal need not being met or addressed by the market. I see there's a lot of products kind of, like, in the nootropic category space.
But, I mean, tell us about, you know, neuro story. Like, what need wasn't being met by for you or Kat, and why did you, you know, stand up this concept? Yeah. It's a great question. I think it's it kinda really stems from, like, our background.
We you know, Kent's my best friend from college. We met half a lifetime ago, and we've we were friends long before we started this company together, but it really kinda started for our love of, you know, athletics and and and maximizing our athletic careers through supplementation. And and it was always always in pill form. You know, you had energy drinks like Red Bull, Monster Rep Rockstar, you know, now Celsius. But, there wasn't, like, a very clean way of getting products or, like, supplements that was unless it was in pill form.
So what basically happened was we were on a scuba diving trip. This was in, 20, like, 13, 2014, and we were just finishing college. And, you know, we had a Groupon offer, and, and Kent's always down to do some new adventures. So we we we hopped on, did some scuba diving, and we realized that, you know, taking pills in public wasn't the best look. So thought that if we could take what's in these pills and make it a little bit more, approachable, accessible, like, gum and mints, that that was an idea that, you know, could really solve that issue.
So, you know, one of the things that we had early on was really trying to find a manufacturer and and willing to take us on. It's great. And, when you're looking at manufacturers, I guess, we one of our one of our listener based kinda core are people that are kind of early start up founders. How do you go about that process? Like, selecting vetting manufacturers, like, what did you guys look forward to determine whether they are a right fit for you?
Especially, I mean, a con a concept too. So, like, taking that idea and then vetting manufacturers and getting prototypes made, how did you think about that process? Yeah. Definitely. It was like a new new concept of putting, you know, health and wellness in into a piece of gum that's just normally for breath freshening.
Right? So, you know, we scoured Google to find different manufacturers in the states, and and you'd be surprised how many rejections you get and or how many emails get bounced back because I think a lot of people didn't want to take on a new idea. And we were really lucky that we found a manufacturer that at the time was kind of a small mom and pop shop that was, like, willing to kinda take on that challenge. So, you know, Kent Kent was a neuroscience degree. I was chemistry.
Never thought that we'd be using those d degrees. I ended up at Hulu doing data. Kent was at Sony Music, and he's a, you know, at heart, a true amazing creative, and he's, like, a world famous, muralist. But we did such different career paths from what we're studying, but then, you know, when we came to to Nuro and, doing NeuroGum, we kinda leaned in to, like, what we what we were passionate about. And so, yeah, guess finding the manufacturer was the the tricky part.
For us, we kinda only had one solution. But I think with other products, usually, you can have a couple more, but, we we we got lucky with ours, and it's been 9 years running. Man. So you've been around 9 years. You guys are the first set of cofounders we've had on the podcast.
So I guess for you, I I see you guys go way back, but, like, what have been the benefits? I see I'm sure it's good to have someone in the trenches with you and also some of the hurdles with having kind of, you know, 2 heads of the dragon, if you will, in terms of drive driving neuro. Yeah. I think, yeah. We get this question a lot in terms of, like, how did you know, what is it like to start a company with your best friend?
Like, I consider Kent like a brother. So, you know, we the biggest part about starting a company, I think, is trust. And I think you can't get very far unless you trust your your partner. And and we we kinda made it a point that, you know, our friendship comes first, business comes second. And and then in turn, like, we put the team first, you know, over over profit or gain.
So I think in terms of the the culture that we built, we really wanna look out for each other. But it really starts with, like, kinda me and Kent's friendship. And I think I've heard horror stories about people, you know, over the years, and it breaks up friendships. I think it it strengthened ours. And like I said, we were friends, like, you know, for over half a lifetime now.
And so we yeah. I think it's 2 heads of a dragon is an interesting thing because we we actually are very different in terms of, like, our skill set. Kent's very creative. He's very execution oriented, and I think I'm a little bit more on the data oriented side given my analytics background. And then, and then I and then at the same time, I I I love talking to people, and I love forming partnerships.
And it's kind of how my role evolved from cofounder CFO to now kind of chief business officer and and and just developing, cool collaborations. That's great. Were at any point when you guys were early on or if there was ever ever any difficulties, is there anything that that kinda tested that friendship first mentality, or has it been, you know, pretty pretty easygoing? I mean, it's a long draw. It was never like an over like, we kinda joke around.
It's like our overnight success took, like, basically, like, 10 years. Right? And and the first The 1st year and a half, like, I was still working at at at Hulu. Kent was, like, I think in the beginning of it, like, kinda living on my couch. And, you know, he was doing he was working at a music studio and then found success as, like, a, children's book artist, and he did, an amazing thing with, the coffee bean and tea leaf.
And then be like, his mural career kinda really just took off. And so the 1st year and a half, like, we had full time jobs, and then Neurogun was really, like, our passion, our our, you know, our baby, but we didn't have the means to kinda just go full time right away. We were, you know, you know, we had rent to pay and we, you know, we had you know, we're in our mid twenties where we're, like you know, we weren't on we were we were sure of it, but we were unsure of, like, can we can we go full time? And so it wasn't until year 2 where, like, you know, we hit we had this revenue goal in mind. I think a year 2, we're like, let's if we hit 750 k or something, that's enough to where we can quit our jobs, be on, like, a ramen budget, and just, like, kinda kinda go from there.
And and luckily, at the time, Tyler, who was Kent's roommate, ended up being our first employee. He's still with us. He's our COO. And and it was just, like, the 3 of us and then 5 of us. And I think now, I think between warehouse and everything, like, we're probably around 60 people.
That's great. Yeah. It was it was a long time. And I think in terms of, like, did we butt heads? It was more, like, just we both were very resilient people, and we just knew that we couldn't give up.
And, yeah, we just kept going. Still at Kind of drawing on that. I mean, you guys I mean, look, kind of looking into you ahead of the conversation. I mean, you're both as athletes kind of you also have, like, personal hobbies. Like, I think you're a pilot.
Right? Or you're able to, like, you're able to fly, you're able to attend some aerialist. Like, based on your just drawing from your friendship, but even, like, some of your extracurriculars, how do you feel like that stuff has helped set you up and kinda build that? Because starting a company is not easy. There's a lot of hardship.
There's a lot of things around the corner that you can't see and get blindsided by. So how do you draw on those other experiences and extracurriculars to kind of really build that fortitude? Yeah. I think I think, like, neuro's kinda mantra is, like, finding balance. Right?
Like, supplementation and how does it fit into your life, and that's something that we always try to preach. So if it's all work, 100%, work, work, work, like, you're gonna get burnt out. Like, they're not gonna last in 9 years. So for me, I was, you know, very curious about different things. I've always wanted to be a pilot.
You know, I I went through a really crazy, life changing accident when I was 19. I was actually paralyzed from the waist down from a snowboarding accident. So, I was living with Kent the summer before, my sophomore year, and I got injured my sophomore year going off, like, a 30 foot jump out in Big Bear, California, and I shattered my back and was paralyzed instantly and pulled out of school. And then the next 2 years was, like, in and out of, you know, school, rehab, surgery, and and it was it was the rock bottom for me. And, you know, Kent was there kinda supporting me and and, visiting me.
And I I think, like, at that point, for me and for Kent to witness that, we were like, life is super short. You know, you can't just focus on one thing and expect to live a a balanced and fulfilling life. So, you know, I know how important art is to Kent. And so, you know, he does, you know, murals to satisfy that. You know, he has, like, he has he's just so creative.
He's so talented at that. And for me, I like, you know, traveling. I like spending time with friends. You know, me and Ken have a lot of the same group of friends, but we travel a lot together, and I think it's important to do that so you don't burn out. That's just, I think, full stop.
Like, you you you you're not gonna be able to last a long game because entrepreneurship is it's not like a one year thing. It's it's kind of a journey. It's a it's a marathon. Right? I mean Yeah.
You gotta pay you gotta pay. There's always more more than enough work to do. You could fill your your time constantly with more work that needs to be done as an entrepreneur. Exactly. Exactly.
When Sean and I worked, together, one analogy is we always refer to, was kind of like deposits versus withdrawals. And whether you're starting a company or it's like a relationship, whether it's romantic or platonic, it's almost like a bank balance, if you will. Right? So if you keep withdrawing, you'll have insufficient funds at one point. So if you're not tending to your own tank, you're gonna burn out.
You're gonna collapse here. If you're not tending to your partner, business partner, romantic partner, it's same thing. You can't keep asking, withdrawing. You have to kind of build into that as well. Yeah.
You have something to draw from. A 100%. So you guys so you guys launched kind of the the initial products, kind of the the neuro focus gum and and mints. It's I know you guys have expanded into to other areas like sleep and calm. What what kind of is your process of of kind of validating that that those are areas that that your consumers want or that there are opportunity areas there?
How do you guys do consumer research at a a company like yours? Yeah. I think for us is, like, you know, neuro being the name, it, like, really starts with the mind. So we really wanted to find products, ingredients that are focused around that. Like, we would never go into something like, I don't know, like, creatine or, like, hangover.
It's, like, really about, like, performance, you know, to some degree, and and, you know, we have a memory and focus product that's just been amazing. We have clinical, trials on the ingredient, which is, like, a form of ginseng called cerebus, and it's, like, 26 clinical studies of how it improves working memory. So it's like, we'll identify certain ingredients. Our r and d team would kind of come to us with, like, some ideas, and then we then try to circle around and say, like, hey. Is this does this fit into our mission and vision?
Because if it's, like, an amazing product but doesn't fit with that, like, if it's, like, creatine or something or, like, maybe maybe not creatine gum, but definitely something with, like, you know, ginseng and, you know, there's so many so many, so much research with caffeine and L theanine and that synergy together. And that was really the basis of the product, and it still, you know, makes majority of the sales for the business. Yeah. That's great. When you launch new products, do you guys try to use your existing user base to to trial it?
Or how do you how do you get that early feedback loop? Now we do. In the beginning, it was like it wasn't the case. But, and in some ways, actually, there was a feedback loop because we launched the product on Indiegogo, so kinda like a Kickstarter crowd funding. And, like, we we knew that the product worked.
We knew that it we thought it was a good idea, but did other people. Right? And then I think we hit our goal in, like, something like 3 or 4 days. The Reddit community really rallied behind us and, then got picked up. Like, you know, doctor Oz did a segment on it, Time Magazine.
And and and then we're like, wow. This is this is something. Like, maybe caffeine, L theanine, gum, energy gum is the thing. And then focus really became a a big part of that element too. So, yeah, I think just developing new products is it it it is a long process.
Like, the sleep one took, I think, a little over a year. Memory and focus, same thing. So, when something comes out, there's definitely a lot of thought behind it. Well, I wanna speak to the product because I think one one thing I try to really take, I guess, be intentional about is anyone that we invite on to this podcast. Like, if I'm not you know, our first guests are actually brands that I people we either worked with, knew, or, like, products I I loved and used and came across you guys.
And I can say, like, pre workout has been such a crutch for me. I'm not a big coffee guy, but the the the thing is, obviously, there's high stim. There's a beta alanine, which makes your face tingle. It can kind of bloat you. It's, like, a lot of liquid.
So, like, I love just for, like, listeners, if you haven't tried Neuro or wonder why to leverage, like, energy and focus, mince, even if you're very active, I can say there's a sharpness, and it doesn't kinda crash your whole system, where you have this polarizing swing of energy, and you can really, like, dial in on just, like, a small dose. So I think that's been, I I love what you guys kind of brought to market there because I do think that's a missed need. Like, a lot of people don't like coffee and the cream, or they might be lactose intolerant. Pre workout is too much and overkill. And, again, you have a lot.
If you're cardio a lot of weird ingredients, and you're like, why is this why is this, like, foamy and red? Ingredients. Like yeah. Proprietary blend. It's like, what?
What am I putting in my body? So, I love that you guys did your homework and your backgrounds, and it's been awesome. Yeah. We we really try to keep it clean. I think it's in the tier point, we kind of laugh about proprietary proprietary blends because it's like, they put anything in there and just call it a proprietary blend.
But for us, like, you know, we took a page out of RXBAR and shout out to Jared Smith who's one of the cofounders of our XBAR. They they really kinda changed that packaging, game where they just like, hey. We have clean ingredients. Like, we that's that's our pride and joy. Let's put that on the front.
And and we we we took a page out of their book, and and Jared's a friend and an investor into Nuro, which is really cool. But we we we gained a lot of inspiration from that, and I think we got nothing in the hide. You know, we put the ingredients in the front that work, that are the actives, and we try to keep it simple. And and to your point, James, like, it's great for pre workout because, you know, you're not drinking, you know, you know, energy drink with Red Bull. I think it's, like, 30 plus grams of sugar.
Yeah. It's not a sugar. You're gonna get a you're gonna peak you're gonna peak on the sugar, and then you're gonna crash on it later. It's not from the caffeine as much as it is from the sugar. And, and then you're not kinda sloshing around different amounts of liquid in your stomach.
So, yeah, I think it's in terms of performance and in terms of bioavailability, you're absorbing the active ingredients, you know, sometimes up to 5 times faster than if you were to ingest it in your stomach. Yeah. So you guys also, I I have a couple of the trends here. You, first cofounders, I think you're the 2nd brand that we've had that's actually appeared on Shark Tank. So Brooks Powell and Cheers, they were all Yeah.
As as well. I mean, talk about that experience. You guys were you guys actually got an offer and turned down, Kevin O'Leary on that, mister wonderful himself, I believe. So And talking to Robert too. Right?
Yeah. Yeah. Two offers. Yeah. Actually, yeah, I know.
Cheers is a great brand. And, yeah, we I think there's a whole Facebook group that is called the Shark Tank Alums, and there's, like, a whole community of people who are on Shark Tank. And it's, we all exchange notes, but it's a super supportive community. But I would say it was probably the most nervous I've ever been in my life. Like, I didn't wanna be an Internet meme.
I didn't wanna, you know, like, come across as you know, we we just wanna represent the brand as best as we could, and this was, we shot September 2019. To give you context, we shot 2019. They don't tell you if you're gonna air until, like, I think, 3 weeks out or something. And then, obviously, the world shut down March 2020 with COVID, and we're like, woah. What's gonna happen?
And then, you know, find out that we're gonna air sometime mid April 2020. And so the world was kinda, like, watching, and and, yeah, we we had our best month at the time through Shark Tank and and Momentum that I think Joe Rogan started to talk about the product organically. We just never paid him to to do that, but he's a fan. And, yeah, those two big things kinda like what was a big catalyst for us, 2020. When when you guys went on to Shark Tank, did you guys have an intention of of trying to get a deal or accepting a deal?
Or did you have a game plan going in? Or or some people go on and just try to get exposure and then leverage that? Like, how did you how did you think about it when you're going on, like, the strategy? I can give you some con like, I think some some stat was, like, 20 or 30,000 companies apply every season to get on, and then a 1,000 get down to producer interviews and, like, videos, which is, like, you know, like, the next step. And out of the 1,000, they invite something like a 140 to actually go on to studio, do the hair makeup, do the producer, like, and and shoot it.
And so you're in front of the shark shooting it. And out of the 1 40, I think it only, like, 90 airs. So just because you shoot it on set doesn't mean it's actually gonna air. So it's like I think like a yeah. A little over, you know, like, 60% chance that you're gonna air in, and the probability of you airing is higher if you take a deal on camera.
And so it's like, we knew going in that, like, we wanted to get the valuation of, like, hey. 15,000,000 was our last valuation back then. Like, let's let's stick with that. And and and I think a lot of people knew that, like, going on Shark Tank, you're gonna get a lower valuation, but the possibility of getting the exposure, all that stuff. But Kent and I knew that 15 is gonna 10 was gonna be, like, the absolute floor or something, I think.
And we were willing to just, you know, just turn down the deals that we got. So we got 2 offers. I think there were, like I think Robert's was, like, a million for, like, 20%. I think it would have put us at, like, 5, and then we're just like, oh, we can't do that. We're just like, can we can we go up?
And, luckily, Kent and I speak Japanese, so we're, like, kinda speaking Japanese a little bit, trying to figure it out. But what you see on camera is, like, you're you see 7 minutes. Right? I think even with the commercial break, you're we were there for, like, an hour 45 minutes. And it's like a blur because it's almost like this podcast.
So then you get into a rhythm, you get into a routine, and it kinda just time flies by. And and same thing there. Like, once all the the cameras are, like, up, you you don't even notice, and they're just so well hidden. And it actually feels like you're just having a conversation with the sharks. And, yeah, like, at the very end, you know, we had the offers, and we're just like, you know, like, that's just too low.
Like, we can't do that. And and we knew going into it that you had a higher probability of erroring if you say yes. And but we weren't just gonna say yes and then try to kill it on the back end on due diligence. We just didn't feel like that was, you know, morally, like, the right thing to do. But so we knew that we had less of a chance to air, but I think they resonated with the story, and and we still got the exposure.
So it was it was a win win because, yeah, now our evaluation's higher than that. So Yes. No. That's that's awesome. What what kinda what kinda lift did you guys see right after that?
I know when we talked to Brooks Powell from Cheers, he said if he could do it all over again, if they said that he had to pay money to go on to get his episode to air, he he's like, I absolutely would have paid them to go on because it was that instrumental for for launching his business. I think he it was worth, like, a few million in revenue pretty quickly for him. Okay. Yeah. I think if I'm not mistaken, I think we had, like, maybe a1000000 in sales within maybe that first, like, 2 weeks, and it tapers off pretty quick.
Right? You get that first bump in. But I think what comes after is just as good because then you can use these assets, and then you you now it's like it opens up these doors because you're like, hey. We're a Shark Tank brand, and people are always curious about Shark Tank brand. So it opened up the doors, like, in terms of conversations with buyers at, you know, places like CBS or you know?
Like, at the time, we weren't even in Whole Foods, and we're just talking about Whole Foods where we just got into an airline at JetBlue Airlines right before we'd air. So it opened up these conversational pieces, and I don't know. We always joke. It's like, if we got a dollar for every time somebody was like, hey. Oh, that's a good idea.
You guys should be going Shark Tank. I was like, I think we would have made a Yeah. At least a couple $1,000. So many people, like, love that show, and and, it's kinda become like an American staple. So we're I'm glad I did it.
That's awesome. I get at the beginning, I was, like, very hesitant, and Kent's like, no. We just gotta do it, man. Like, it's it's gonna be good. And I was like, alright.
That's amazing. You guys, I've I've watched my share of Shark Tank episodes, and you guys I mean, you remain poised, when you're turning them down. Like, I've seen so many it's not a knock. I would be probably my mind would be spinning if I had offers. I had to decide, like, on the spot, like, put put Yeah.
In the gun of my head on that. But, like, you guys remain so poised, and I get in terms of what aired in the episode, like, it's very, like, clear. Like, you guys held your principles on it. So I think it was just, like, very admirable because I've seen so many people just, like, lawful, fall over each other, and then just, like, really enter bad negotiation, at that point. So Yeah.
I think we just we knew it's like, hey. This is the absolute floor. Like, we will not like, even if it was, like, you know, like, a dollar short, it's like, let's just let's just like, that's, like, our floor. Hold to it. And we had pre like, we had decided that going into it.
And then we if we got the, say, the evaluation even that close to 15 or around 10, like, I we would have considered it. Right? And we were looking at different mechanisms, like, during the negotiation process of, like, a, like, maybe we could do is, like, not that, maybe some advisory, but to get us to that evaluation. But, you know, at the end of the day, like, what what Aaron was, like, a very short segment of it. And, and, ultimately, like, then you go if you take a deal on camera, then it goes into due diligence.
And I've I've heard of processes from friends' companies that took, like, 3 to 6 months post. Right? Yeah. It just takes a long time. It's like you're going through a normal, like, due diligence process.
That's crazy. So you talked about, it being on the on Shark Tank, being helpful with with retail buyers and and getting in. Now you guys are in over 10,000 stores. What was that process like? Because I know you started in a direct to consumer and on Amazon and then and then ventured into retail.
How's that process been and any lessons that you've learned, either from going into retailers too quickly or or things that you would have done differently or things that have gone well beyond your wildest expectation? Yeah. I think, like, just to paint some context. Like, majority of the business is still ecommerce. Right?
So Amazon, TikTok, or website. So retail makes up a small pretty small percentage of the business even though we're in quite a lot of doors. But what we see is that it's a lot more consistent if you can crack that code. So CBS for us is a very consistent business. Whole Foods has become very consistent.
Some of the retailers that didn't work out for us was, like, something like Walmart. We're just like, you're you're getting lost in terms of placement. So, like, instead of us being in, like, a checkout counter or, like, at Whole Foods, like, we're in the health like, wellness section, and then in a lot of stores where checkout lane, CVS. We're in the pharmacy for, like, memory focus area. Like, we were in specific places that we could target in in Walmart.
We're just in the gum and candy aisle. So you're gonna get mixed up with everything in Mars and Oregon, and we, like, didn't want that placement. And I think we were just like, well, maybe we should give it a shot. And we we did, and and it wasn't the right move. We decided to pull out of Walmart.
It was just more expensive to service it than, like, the money that we were making. So a lot of people don't choose to leave, but we elected to to get out and then kind of save our chips for things that are more profitable that we could focus on velocity. So, you know, the the the channels that work really well for us, natural foods, so Sprouts, Whole Foods, incredible channels for us. Erewhon in LA, if you know, is a great channel for us. I think we have, like, the number one calm product there.
Their mints. And and CVS has been growing too, and we're gonna do c store next year. So convenience stores, is gonna be a big push for us as well. Yeah. And I think that's just something you said that's a good lesson for founders out there is is making sure the retailer and even the placement within that retailer is the right fit for your brand.
Like, I see a lot of early stage founders, and I've been guilty of it too, running brands in the past. Like, you go in because you're enamored by the the doors of the distribution, but you don't Yeah. Always view it through the lens of is it the right strategic choice if it's placed in this aisle or is anybody ever gonna discover me or find me there? Yeah. So I think it's just a good lesson of of how people should think about it because it's a it's a pitfall I see a lot of early stage founders make going into retail because, you know, they're excited that a buyer will take them.
They don't always then think of, I gotta move it off the shelf and drive velocity after a minute. I think it's the hardest part. I think I I we're guilty of it too. We were enamored. Like, CVS was our first thing, like, first, big retailer, and then we got into a bunch.
Walmart was, like, I think, the big learning lesson that we're like, well, we just didn't have, one, the the brand awareness within a Walmart consumer that they could have gone to that candy gum section and sought us out. Right? It was like, for somebody who hasn't heard of us, like, to to look at our packaging and been like, boom. Okay. Like, I'd I've never heard of this, so I'm willing to try it.
Or maybe I've overheard it from, you know, Rogan or Shark Tank. Like, maybe I can give this a try. Like, we just weren't in the right placement, but we were enamored by the doors. We're like, I don't know, 4,000 doors. I'm like, oh, yeah.
Let's do it. But it ended up, yeah, costing us more money to to Yeah. Bring that back and get the inventory back. And it worked out because, like, our ecommerce business was skyrocketing. So the inventory we got back from Walmart, we sold off really quickly.
So but we got lucky. I think some some other brands, it it's not. Right? Like, if you don't have Yeah. If you can't if you can't get the inventory back or you can't repurpose it or if it's close to x 3, like, you can really Yeah.
Take a bath on a Yeah. On that investment. Yeah. I think omnichannel approach is really important, but just doing it where you're not stretching yourself is too thin. One, one channel I see, emerging brands try to leverage and, like, break into retail is, like, trade shows, like, extra west.
These others, they're very expensive, to do. I mean, what is your take? What was neuro's experience with trade shows? What advice would you give to founders that are, like, trying to figure out, hey. Do we wanna shell out, you know, 20, 30, if not more, $1,000, just on the booth, and then you talk about the sampling.
I mean, it could be, like, a 50 k plus investment, if not more easily. Easily. Yeah. I mean, what's your advice there? I have a lot of friends who've had booths at Expo West, and they said it was, like, it was worth it.
And I've had others that were like, oh, like, you know, it's just expensive. But I've had a lot of brands that have done it, like, 1 or 2 times, and they're like, I don't need to do it this 3rd or 4th time. Like, I got what I needed that first or second time. If you have the cash to do it and then make and do it right, I think for a newer brand, it it you do get the the eyeballs from the buyers, from investors. I think it's I think it's great.
We never done Expo West as, like, a booth, but we go there every year just to walk around and hand out samples. We see a lot of familiar, like, faces and friends. We've done the CAHI UNFI shows. This past year, we did NACS through one of our investors and partners. And so, like, yeah, my experience though with Expo West, if you're if you're asking that about Expo West specifically, I I've had a lot of friends.
I've found a lot of success in it. But it is, I think, minimum, you know, about 50 k if you're gonna do the booth and and and all of that right. Not just, like, get buy the booth space and then and then not have enough money to make it look nice. So Yeah. Yeah.
Because you're competing against, I mean, thousands of retailers. If you haven't been, it's a complete Cheers. It's it's amazing, but it is daunting. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's it's in the Super Bowl. You like discovering brands? It's it's very fun to go to and walk around. Yeah.
I think Expo West is is really cool because you kinda have this crystal ball of, like, what the foresight is gonna look like in terms of what food and bev Yeah. You know, the industry is gonna evolve into. So I remember going there, like, years ago, like, 8 years ago, and it's like, alt milk was, like, just on the rise. Right? Like and and and then, yeah, a couple years later, then it's all over.
You know? And then you have your gluten free rice. You had CBD, which quickly died out in my opinion. So, like, you see all these trends that aren't fully trends yet, but you see, like, what the trendsetters might be. Yeah.
It makes a ton of sense. You've so you guys or go ahead, James. No. No. I was just gonna say on the on the trends front, we're seeing a lot of people double down on TikTok right now, influencers, celebrity backed brands.
You guys obviously had some exposure with Rogan, but, Steve Aoki as well. Like, how do you go about, like, celebrity selection? Like, how how should brands think about that in terms of, like, who are the right celebrities to kind of, like, model or support the brand? And, like, how is it not just, how does it seem authentic to your consumer base and also grow as well? That's a great question.
Yeah. So Apollo Ono, a time Olympic medalist, is, like, an early friend investor, and and we met, you know, when Kent was training out of, like, the Olympic judo team. I was training with the Paralympic team, and we met, him through a mutual friend, Bing Chen, who's amazing. He started Gold House, which is an incredible nonprofit. And and he was authentic because he loved the product.
The policy, I actually use this. Like, I I wanna know more. Steve is the same thing. Like, he loved the product and then eventually became an investor and an advocate. I think when you're looking for celebrities, you have to look for not just the name, but if they're if they genuine genuinely use it.
Right? Like, you don't wanna be like, okay. I'm gonna pay you x, and most startups don't have dollar x. They pay you in dollar, like or y percent equity. Right?
And that's gonna be very expensive if if they're not gonna be talking about the product authentically. And, you know, another person we brought on was Dave Grutman. He's, like, you know, huge in Miami in terms of, like, owning that nightlife space, understanding hospitality. So, you know, his business, to Live Nation, and, you know, they partner on a bunch of deals. So, like, Dave genuinely liked the product.
He actually like the sleep product a lot, and he was like, I actually use this product all the time for the energy. And so, like, my advice for startups that wanna go down that celebrity route and get that kind of maybe clout is, like, sample as much as you can and see who comes back asking for more because those are the advocates that are gonna, like, you know, be a brand ambassadors. Right? And I think, I've seen sometimes people bring on celebrity partners because it's a big name. They don't even use the product or they're not you know, there's a million other things they're involved in, and it just falls to the wayside.
And then you have, you know, the celebrity, but they sit dead on their cap table. So that's my advice is, like, we're really selective in that process. Like, we just had to make sure that the they're fans of the product. And we sample it a lot. Like, a lot of celebrities kind of like Devin Booker from the NBA, like Freddie Freeman from Dodgers.
Like, they tried the product. They love it. And it's like, okay. Well, then the next step is like, okay. Can we do some type of, you know, commercial or maybe collaboration or social media activation or maybe even talk about equity?
Yeah. That's awesome. And you guys I know you have a big, obviously, a big TikTok influencer program and and sell a lot on Amazon, your own website, and on on the TikTok shops. What what gets you most excited beyond just your typical, you know, Amazon AdWords or or Meta ad spend or Google AdWords? If if you could spend, like, your next dollar that you're most excited about on on marketing tactics or marketing channels, where would you spend it and and and what gets you excited for the next year?
Yeah. I think TikTok's been huge. I think we were at one point the 2nd largest brand on TikTok, and then it was now it's like an inventory issue for us. Right? And, like I was telling you guys before the podcast, like, we're really excited because we're, gonna be on the TikTok home page for TikTok shop, December 18th or 22nd.
They're gonna TikTok's activating us at Times Square all over New York City. But we'll be on the home page for 5 days, and it is gonna be mega. So Steve Aoki is gonna help with the live. We're gonna do something with Patty, the scuba diving organization. It's a full circle there.
Like, you know, we partnered. We're the 2nd largest donor for Patty Aware, which is their That's awesome. Nonprofit, for ocean conservation. And they're a $1,000,000,000 company. They got 29,000,000 scuba divers around the world.
And there's so many cool activation. Young the Giant, they're good friends of mine. They're one of the biggest indie rock bands, and they're they're helping us out kinda promote TikTok new arrival. So we're launching our new spearmint and wintergreen flavors exclusive exclusively on TikTok. That's where I would spend my money right now because there's so many eyeballs and the algorithm's so good.
And they flip the script because before d two c brands, you know, you might have a couple people on your creative design team or you license it to an agency. And then you put the ads up on Facebook or Meta, and then you see what performs, you put more money behind it. TikTok's flipped it because then you have this organic content and the pool of creators that find the hooks. Oh, you give them hooks and you give them, like, things that you could talk about, things that you could say, and then they get really creative with it. And you get thousands of videos, some go viral, and then you, you know and then it it's really changed the script where it's like, now you don't have this bottleneck of trying to find creative.
Now you have this, like, huge massive people that can do the creative for you. Yeah. And then and then people come up with some amazing things. Like, it's amazing about open source you're like open sourcing, like, the the creative process. How do you guys think about that?
I was actually just on the board of a baby care company and we were talking about influencer and kind of TikTok toolkits today. But how do you guys think about how much to give them? Like like whether it's assets that they could use or scripts or like, here's some hooks you could consider or different benefits to talk about. Like, how how formalized is what you provide them versus kind of letting them, you know, authentically just talk about it themselves. Yeah.
I mean, obviously, you can't have them say things like this is gonna this is the best thing in the world for your baby. It's gonna make them the next science center. I think you have to be you have to create strict guidelines on the things that you know you can say, and I would always advise, like, making sure that they're not overstepping. Yeah. And sometimes you do see that.
Right? And those creators get taken down, and they get taken down for a good reason. You don't want them to spread misinformation. So it's really important to just lay it out, and and it's like anything. It's like if you're onboarding an employee, you're not gonna be like, hey.
Alright. Good luck and figure it out. Like, you wanna create that onboarding process as as smooth as possible and be as concrete as possible as I think it's the same thing as when you're onboarding a creator. Yeah. That's great.
So And there's so many creators that aren't even creators. They just do it authentically now, which is Yeah. You made the best part. So you have creators that you seek out, and then now that bleeds over to just everyday people who, you know, they're not getting paid. They just wanna talk about the product, and that's really where you create the vitality.
And I think that's how you develop brand. Yeah. So if you're a brand trying to think about this, I think, those briefs are gonna be very critical. Think about them as, like, guardrails. So let the let the creator determine, like, which lane they're gonna drive it and how fast, but you have to create the guardrails with the brief to make sure that they're, in line and representing the brand at least accurately and not gonna get create more issues for you.
Yeah. Guard rails. Like, bumper is when you're bowling. You don't want them to gutter ball it. Like, at least hit some pins.
Yeah. Yeah. Like, it doesn't need to be a strike, but if even if they can hit some pins and and those are the pins that you you laid out for them, I think that's critical. That's great. I guess, as we're kind of, we've ripped we've ripped through, a number and we had a pretty robust list of questions.
We've ripped through them. I mean, this has been awesome. Amazing. One concept that came up, I talked about this with Cody. And I I think me at one point, it was you or Kent that were exchanging with him.
This is going back a couple years, but, like, is it, Misogi? The kind of that concept of Misogi. And, I I think it's really fascinating for listeners. I might butcher it, so Ryan, you have to, like, keep me honest here, but it's it's like something you're supposed to commit to, like, once a year where you have a was it better than 50% chance of failing? But, obviously, it's, like, not life threatening more or less.
It's supposed to kinda create this self selected adversity to really kinda push yourself and unlock, you know, another level or experience. So, I I guess, talk to us about, you know, have you incorporated that? If you have, what have you done, and and what are you kind of looking and planning on for your 2025 Mesogie? Yeah. I think it's like pushing yourself to, like, your limit.
Right? Like, knowing what's, like, what's possible. And I think pushing yourself to where there is that chance of failure. And I think Kent did one earlier this year. He did, like, his first ultra marathon.
So it was, I think, like, I think, like, 35 miles or something, but not, like, on a track. It was, like, in the mountains. It was, like, pushing his body to the limit, and he was just like, yeah. Like, I was just stirring up because it was just such a beautiful experience. And, I I think that's amazing because you should always challenge yourself to to push what that limit is.
I think my, you know, 2 years ago, I still got my pilot's license. Not many paraplegics think that they can do that, and I was like, you know, I think I can do this, and there's a program that now I'm still like the next step is called IFR. It's like, instrument flight rating. It's like a big step from private, pilot's license. So, basically, it's like landing a plane just purely on instrumentation.
So, like, if weather is completely blacked out, you can land a plane just looking at the instruments in front of you. So it's a big step in terms of, like oh, that's a big learning curve. And I think just, like, pushing past that mental barrier knowing that I can do it, trusting in, like, the training, is one. And, yeah, I think that's that'd probably be my for for next year. Then it's it's a lot of it's a lot of reading.
So yeah. I I can imagine. I well, I love that because I think today I don't know. I feel society really preserves or is trying to pursue, like, comfort and convenience. Like, how fast can I get this to me?
Can I just you know, I have pseudo social network where I'm gonna be social via social media versus actually sitting across the room from someone and, like, breaking bread and having hard conversations or being a kinda keyboard courage? But, like, it's pain can be a gift, and, like, it's the adversity that grows us and builds confidence. Like, I'm a coach for some youth soccer. It's like seeing the kid that struggles at the beginning of the season, then scoring the 1st goal and kinda creating that sense of self belief. Like, oh, I did this.
Like, wait a minute. Yeah. New grooves are now formed in my brain, and they're gonna be able to have that much more resilience to step into that next thing. It's like, you played Madden grow growing up, and it's like, okay. You're in 80 overall, but then over the course of season, now you're an 87 or an 89.
Like, I think that we try to avoid, discomfort and pain and adversity, but that's where we're forged and kinda build that confidence and resilience. So, I I I followed that thread. I, like, love what you and Kent are doing, how you embody that. Awesome. And, yeah.
Yeah. I think, like, easy things are easy for a reason. Right? And I think we do live in a a world where it's very convenient. And I was listening to this thing that Charlie Munger had said.
Like, he was like, you know, we're living, like, compared to a 100 years ago, like, 600% better. And that that metric was, like, in terms of, like, longevity, access to modern medicine, like, air travel. It's like now, like, most people can get on a plane or have a car. Like, that wasn't a thing like a 100 year. 200 years ago, it was, like, you know, the industrial like and then even if we're comparing our lives a 1000 years, we're, like, lifespans were so short.
Right? And now we're living longer. We're living better. And all these convenient things, and I think the what I urge everybody to do is is be uncomfortable because then you can challenge yourself, and you have this sense of accomplishment that you could just do a lot more. Like, life is very, very short.
And I think, you know, when Kent and I started the business and, you know, after me going through my accident and Kent going through other, like, personal things, it was like, you know, starting business isn't life or death. And a lot of people always ask me. It's like, oh my god. What is it like starting business so hard? I'm like, yes.
It's hard, but it's not life or death. And if you don't try, you're you'll never know. And you'll let leave that page in your book unturned. Like, you wanna be able to turn these pages as many pages as possible to see, like, what you can accomplish in your life. And I think, you know, some people think the notion of, like, w two employment, like, that's the only secure path.
I think w two employment isn't always the most secure. Right? Like, you could be doing everything well, but we're all fungible at the end of the day. So it's like, why don't you put yourself out there? I mean, you guys are a great example where you you didn't jump in with both feet right at the outset.
Right? You both had your other jobs. You didn't have to go burn the boats. It was, hey. Let's test this passion of ours and set a certain target.
If said target is hit, then we then we go. And and you guys did that, and you've grown into this amazing thing. So really impressed with what you guys have built. I've really enjoyed today's conversation, and I Yeah. I've always If you have not tried neuro, absolutely, do it.
TikTok shop. Is it neuro.com? Neurogum.com? Yeah. Neurogum.com.
Get neuro.com. Neurominds.com. We just bought them all. Yeah. Yeah.
That's great. All the domains. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been really fun.
I really appreciate the time. Yeah. I appreciate it, Ryan. Thank you again for coming on. Thank you.
Thank you.